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Autore Topic: Boxe Libera  (Letto 4782 volte)

Offline Claudio Alfarano

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Re:Boxe Libera
« Risposta #150 il: Aprile 18, 2017, 17:24:53 pm »
+1
io non ritengo certa nessuna tecnica marziale o arte.
Niente assicura niente.
Il Silat fatto in un certo modo potrebbe servire a qualcosa, a patto che sia allenato bene e con intensità.
Ma ciò vale per tutte le arti.
A me piace per la capacità che dà di educare il corpo a muoversi con precisione ed equilibrio. Il resto, se viene, è un di più.
Un allenamento di Kali a mani nude è sicuramente più divertente e libero da schemi

Offline Andy

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Re:Boxe Libera
« Risposta #151 il: Aprile 19, 2017, 09:58:33 am »
0
"Schemi" inteso come..? Improvvisato, mentre il Silat è più "legato"..?

Offline Claudio Alfarano

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Re:Boxe Libera
« Risposta #152 il: Aprile 20, 2017, 11:37:17 am »
+2
Sì.
Ti incollo una cosa che scrissi a Novembre per un gruppo chiuso dei miei amici portoghesi praticanti di AM Filippine e Jogo Do Pau e volevano saperne di più sulle differenze tra Am filippine e indonesiane. Non l'ho tradotto, è solo in inglese.

KALI ≠ SILAT
Sometimes I am told: "filipino and indonesian martial arts are really similar. That's why they can blend so good."
I think they are not. I believe they are different. Like japanese Karate or chinese kung fu are different from Kali, so is Pencak Silat.
Indonesian martial arts are much more similar (or close) to japanese and chinese styles than to filipino arts. It's because of their structure.
Filipino martial arts (FMA) have an open structure, you can add something and it stays the same. It was always like that. They absorbed from the malays, from the japanese, from america. They absorbed customs, religions, language, weapons and made it filipino, tipically filipino. They can adapt to the weapon and its lenght, to the player and his body. Each style is different (for the trained eye), but they possess a peculiar filipino way to do things. Naturally I talk about styles, not multisystems.
I want to underline the fact that open-structure is different from no-structure and that I don't prefere nor choose one on another.
Pencak Silat, by contrary, has a more fixed structure. Lines are different, rules are different, footwork is different, and so it's the training. Starting with empty hands, as many other fighting arts, is only the tip of the iceberg.
Each style has its forms (jurus) and drills and the heart of the specific style it's right there. Regarding my field of interest, that is west java Pencak Silat, the positions of the shoulders, heels, knees, lines and angles of attack are also far from the FMA approach.
So, why so many martial artists mix them?
First of all, because of the JKD mentality. Guro Inosanto did it, and did it good. Many others studied that approach, simply copied that, or took the idea and made their mix. Many, like me, got to Pencak Silat via Kali or JeetKuneDo, and the little story of the ease to blend the three (or more) spread through the world. But is not necessarily so.
Strange is that, in my humble opinion, you can add something or principles to Kali and it stays Kali. But if you add something to a specific style of Pencak Silat, is not more that specific style anymore. It's something new. Your Silat teacher will tell you. Clearly. Not politely, maybe ;)
I usually can add some little things from Pencak Silat especially to my Kali empty hands game, but is really hard to take from FMA and add to Pencak Silat without changing it.
It's always about structure. Some indonesia styles can have only two ways to give an elbow shot: diagonal up and vertical up. That's the style. That's it. Or more, the point of your elbow bone must reach the height of your nipple. Your kneecap must point at a specific angle, your shoulders must cross a specific line, your heels must stick to the ground. Your knuckles must stay within the lines of your shoulders. You can hardly say the same about Kali or Panantukan. This is also because of the many cutting through movements o the FMA. In Kali, some styles have a more fixed structure than others, some are rapidly recognizable, but they hardly have the same fixed structure as indonesian styles.
How do we can overtake this problem? The answear is always the same: training.
The more you train, the more you undestand. The more you understand, the more you see the difference. The more you see difference, the more you respect the style and, consequently, people giving you their time.
It is not necessary to teach what you can do after years of training and adapting your game. Not always what is good for you is good for others. It's your way. Let other find theirs.
Teach separately and then, if they want, let others create their game with their experience as time goes by.

Offline Takuanzen

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Re:Boxe Libera
« Risposta #153 il: Maggio 01, 2017, 00:21:38 am »
+1
Sì.
Ti incollo una cosa che scrissi a Novembre per un gruppo chiuso dei miei amici portoghesi praticanti di AM Filippine e Jogo Do Pau e volevano saperne di più sulle differenze tra Am filippine e indonesiane. Non l'ho tradotto, è solo in inglese.

KALI ≠ SILAT
Sometimes I am told: "filipino and indonesian martial arts are really similar. That's why they can blend so good."
I think they are not. I believe they are different. Like japanese Karate or chinese kung fu are different from Kali, so is Pencak Silat.
Indonesian martial arts are much more similar (or close) to japanese and chinese styles than to filipino arts. It's because of their structure.
Filipino martial arts (FMA) have an open structure, you can add something and it stays the same. It was always like that. They absorbed from the malays, from the japanese, from america. They absorbed customs, religions, language, weapons and made it filipino, tipically filipino. They can adapt to the weapon and its lenght, to the player and his body. Each style is different (for the trained eye), but they possess a peculiar filipino way to do things. Naturally I talk about styles, not multisystems.
I want to underline the fact that open-structure is different from no-structure and that I don't prefere nor choose one on another.
Pencak Silat, by contrary, has a more fixed structure. Lines are different, rules are different, footwork is different, and so it's the training. Starting with empty hands, as many other fighting arts, is only the tip of the iceberg.
Each style has its forms (jurus) and drills and the heart of the specific style it's right there. Regarding my field of interest, that is west java Pencak Silat, the positions of the shoulders, heels, knees, lines and angles of attack are also far from the FMA approach.
So, why so many martial artists mix them?
First of all, because of the JKD mentality. Guro Inosanto did it, and did it good. Many others studied that approach, simply copied that, or took the idea and made their mix. Many, like me, got to Pencak Silat via Kali or JeetKuneDo, and the little story of the ease to blend the three (or more) spread through the world. But is not necessarily so.
Strange is that, in my humble opinion, you can add something or principles to Kali and it stays Kali. But if you add something to a specific style of Pencak Silat, is not more that specific style anymore. It's something new. Your Silat teacher will tell you. Clearly. Not politely, maybe ;)
I usually can add some little things from Pencak Silat especially to my Kali empty hands game, but is really hard to take from FMA and add to Pencak Silat without changing it.
It's always about structure. Some indonesia styles can have only two ways to give an elbow shot: diagonal up and vertical up. That's the style. That's it. Or more, the point of your elbow bone must reach the height of your nipple. Your kneecap must point at a specific angle, your shoulders must cross a specific line, your heels must stick to the ground. Your knuckles must stay within the lines of your shoulders. You can hardly say the same about Kali or Panantukan. This is also because of the many cutting through movements o the FMA. In Kali, some styles have a more fixed structure than others, some are rapidly recognizable, but they hardly have the same fixed structure as indonesian styles.
How do we can overtake this problem? The answear is always the same: training.
The more you train, the more you undestand. The more you understand, the more you see the difference. The more you see difference, the more you respect the style and, consequently, people giving you their time.
It is not necessary to teach what you can do after years of training and adapting your game. Not always what is good for you is good for others. It's your way. Let other find theirs.
Teach separately and then, if they want, let others create their game with their experience as time goes by.

Molto interessante. Grazie Claudio.
Mi pare di capire come il Silat abbia un approccio più simile alle arti marziali cinesi e giapponesi, rispetto al Kali. Vale anche per lo studio dei djurus?

Secondo te però, per imparare uno stile più libero da schemi come il Kali, non è forse meglio prima aver comunque interiorizzato degli schemi più rigidi come quelli del Silat? Insomma, consiglieresti il Kali ad un principiante? Questo è stato sempre il mio dubbio riguardo ai sistemi esperienziali, "aperti" o "istintivi" (uso il termine per semplificare). :thsit:

Offline Claudio Alfarano

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Re:Boxe Libera
« Risposta #154 il: Maggio 02, 2017, 17:29:35 pm »
+2
A te ;)
Per me sì.
Il Silat ha un approccio più simile a KungFu vari e Karate.
Va anche detto che Java e Sumatra hanno avuto scambi commerciali rispettivamente con Cina del Sud e Okinawa.
L'Indonesia e Malesia hanno subito influenze da India, Cina e mondo islamico, mentre le Filippine principalmente dalle arti marziali europee (iberiche in particolare) e nel XX secolo da US e Giappone. Le isole a Sud invece da Cina e mondo islamico.
Le arti europee hanno sempre avuto una stretta relazione con il mondo della Boxe, molti dei primi esperti venivano da scherma di spada (Backsword, vedi James Figg) o bastone. L'impostazione è diversa.
Ritengo sia + semplice per un praticante di arti di genere pugilistico (Thai, Kick, Boxe, Savate ecc) imparare meccaniche del Kali.
Il contrario per un praticante di stili cinesi o giapponesi che troverà più facile adattarsi agli stili indonesiani.
Vale anche per lo studio dei Jurus.

Riguardo alla tua seconda domanda.
Dipende dal talento del praticante e dall'esperienza dell'insegnante.
Tutto si può iniziare da zero o dopo precedenti esperienze.
Alla fine, è sempre una questione di culo ;)

Offline Andy

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Re:Boxe Libera
« Risposta #155 il: Maggio 03, 2017, 09:11:56 am »
+1
Gira che ti rigira, lo stile più adattabile e concreto ha avuto influenze occidentali. STRANO.  XD

Offline Ale_ale

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Re:Boxe Libera
« Risposta #156 il: Maggio 03, 2017, 17:19:42 pm »
0
il silat non lo è?

Offline Win 45-60

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Re:Boxe Libera
« Risposta #157 il: Maggio 03, 2017, 18:56:44 pm »
0
Mi sbaglierò ma quando si parla delle odierne AMF ho l'impressione che si tratti di qualcosa di ri-scoperto, ri-assemblato e ri-vitalizzato appunto in occidente (USA) per poi riprendere campo anche nella terra d'origine assai più che nel passato, quando magari la pratica era ristretta a quattro gatti amici di famiglia o componenti della stessa consorteria banditesca...

va a finire che la loro efficienza e praticità, al di là del valore dei tradizionali concetti di base (in buona parte comuni alle varie scuole), dipende proprio da una "rilettura" occidentale (o comunque ispirata alla mentalità occidentale)

più parecchie influenze da parte delle "modernizzate" discipline giapponesi, direi